Show HN: Double blind entropy using Drand for verifiably fair randomness

blockrand.net
rishi_blockrand
16 hours ago
21points
The only way to get a trust-less random value is to have it distributed and time-locked three ways, player, server and a future-entropy.

In the demo above, the moment you commit (Roll-Dice) a commit with the hash of a player secret is sent to the server and the server accepts that and sends back the hash of its secret back and the "future" drand round number at which the randomness will resolve. The future used in the demo is 10 secs

When the reveal happens (after drand's particular round) all the secrets are revealed and the random number is generated using "player-seed:server-seed:drand-signature".

All the verification is in Math, so truly trust-less, so:

1. Player-Seed should matches the player-hash committed

2. Server-Seed should matches the server-hash committed

3. Drand-Signature can is publicly not available at the time of commit and is available at the time of reveal. (Time-Locked)

4. Random number generated is deterministic after the event and unknown and unpredictably before the event.

5. No party can influence the final outcome, specially no "last-look" advantange for anyone.

I think this should be used in all games, online lottery/gambling and other systems which want to be fair by design not by trust.

15 comments

Comments

hackingonempty14 hours ago
> The only way to get a trust-less random value is to have it distributed and time-locked three ways, player, server and a future-entropy.

Are you sure? The protocol described in Chuck Norris book Applied Cryptography seems to work fine without a randomness beacon. Once you get the commitments from all parties they reveal the nonces and everyone verifies they match the commitments and extracts the same random bits.

rishi_blockrand14 hours ago
Great point—Schneier’s two-party protocol is the foundation... However, it suffers from the 'Last-Actor/Last-Look' problem in a client-server environment.

In a standard 2-party commit-reveal, one party always learns the result first. (Mostly servers in current setups).

By adding a Randomness Beacon (Drand) as a third entropy source, we solve two things: No Last-Look: Neither the player nor the server knows the outcome until a specific future timestamp (the Drand round). Forced Resolution: Since the Drand signature is public, once that round passes, the result is 'locked' by math. The server can't hold the result hostage because anyone can pull the Drand signature and verify the result themselves.

CGMthrowaway14 hours ago
Right. In a strict two‑party client‑server provably fair system without economic penalties or extra trust assumptions, eliminating last‑actor bias requires external future entropy (or an equivalent third uncontrollable source)
rishi_blockrand13 hours ago
Exactly. For a web app where you can't easily "slash" a server for disappearing, you need that "uncontrollable third source" to force the game to finish.

I looked at VDFs and custom MPCs, but they felt like overkill for a dice roll. Drand is basically a "pre-computed" MPC that anyone can verify with a simple curl. It hits that pragmatic sweet spot for a trustless audit without the "math homework" for the user...

hackingonempty11 hours ago
For others learning about this, the attack this project addresses is someone (maybe the web server) waits until everyone else reveals their committed bits then they alone know the outcome and if it is unfavorable they don't reveal and possibly repeat the game until they get the result they want.
rishi_blockrand11 hours ago
Spot on. By using Drand, we move from Optional Reveal to Deterministic Resolution — the result exists publicly the moment the round closes.

It turns the server from a "Judge" into a "Timestamped Vault" that can't hold the outcome hostage if it's unfavourable, giving the player a winning ticket they can verify independently.

rishi_blockrand5 hours ago
The reason for having a deliberate delay (10 sec here in the demo) is that I think 'the next round' (of drand for example) is a security anti-pattern.

If a server sees the Drand beacon just a few milliseconds before the user's commit is finalized, they can 'veto' a winning roll by dropping the packet.

Is 10s of UX friction a fair price for a Time-Lock that ensures the result literally doesn't exist anywhere in the world at the moment of commitment?

WatchDog15 hours ago
Clicking the button sometimes displays an error:

    Error: JSON.parse: unexpected character at line 1 column 1 of the JSON data

Looking at the network tab, the POST request to the commit API returns a 409 error with the message:

    Commitment already pending for Round 26020619. Please wait for settlement before starting a new round.
rishi_blockrand15 hours ago
Oh yes, its only one commitment per call... this is a UI handling issue, will resolve it... the backend by design only takes one commitment per player, till it is resolved/revealed... Thanks
WatchDog15 hours ago
This happened on the first click opening the page, no other commit request in progress from myself, although maybe it's conflicting with other users.
rishi_blockrand15 hours ago
Oh ok... so then thats definitely a bug then... actually drand issues randomness every 3 seconds... so may be multiple on the same drand round has a bug... will correct that... Thanks
rishi_blockrand11 hours ago
I just checked the code and it was a small demo/front-end issue of assigning the player_id (in javascript)... have corrected it now : )

The logic of back end api (written in go, commitment stored in firestore), is intact, the 409 will come only if the same user tries to commit again before the reveal, this is by design.

rishi_blockrand14 hours ago
The current time (in the demo) is fixed around 10 secs, but it can be anything, minimum being 6 secs (as the fastest) Drand pulse is 3 second, and some latency buffer...
charv15 hours ago
Cool stuff! I seem to have found a bug — often when I roll, I get this error and no roll happens:

  Error: The string did not match the expected pattern.
rishi_blockrand15 hours ago
Hmm... I have not been able to replicate that... Can u screenshot it ? Thanks for trying it out : )